Coleman Jackson, P.C. | Transcript of Legal Thoughts Podcast
Published January 27, 2021.

Legal Thoughts is a podcast presentation by Coleman Jackson, P.C., a law firm based in Dallas, Texas serving individuals, businesses, and agencies from around the world in taxation, litigation, and immigration legal matters.

This particular episode of Legal Thoughts is a podcast where the Attorney, Coleman Jackson is being interviewed by Reyna Munoz, Tax Legal Assistant of Coleman Jackson, P.C.   The topic of discussion is “Update on Covid-19 Relief for Individuals and Businesses pt. 3” You can listen to this podcast by clicking here:

You can also listen to this episode and subscribe to Coleman Jackson, P.C.’s Legal Thoughts podcast on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, Cashbox or wherever you may listen to your podcast.

TRANSCRIPT:
ATTORNEY:  Coleman Jackson
Legal Thoughts
COLEMAN JACKSON, ATTORNEY & COUNSELOR AT LAW

ATTORNEY:  Coleman Jackson

Welcome to Tax Thoughts

• My name is Coleman Jackson and I am an attorney at Coleman Jackson, P.C., a taxation, litigation and immigration law firm based in Dallas, Texas.
• Our topic for today is: “Update on Covid-19 Relief for Individuals and Businesses- Part 3.”
• Other members of Coleman Jackson, P.C. are Yulissa Molina, Tax Legal Assistant, Leiliane Godeiro, Litigation Legal Assistant, Reyna Munoz, Immigration Legal Assistant and Mayra Torres, Public Relations Associate.
• On this “Legal Thoughts” podcast our immigration legal assistant, Reyna Munoz will be asking the questions and I will be responding to her questions on this important tax topic: “Update on Covid-19 Relief for Individuals and Businesses- Part 3.”

Reyna Munoz Introduces Herself to the Audience:

• Good morning everyone. My name is Reyna Munoz and I am the immigration legal assistant at Coleman Jackson, P.C.  Coleman Jackson, P.C. is a taxation, litigation and immigration law firm based right here in Dallas, Texas.
• Attorney we have published two prior podcast where we discussed various aspects of the tax relief offered to individuals and businesses in the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021. In Part One of Legal Thoughts Podcast  several weeks ago, we spent most of our time talking about stimulus checks.  Then in Part Two, we spent the bulk of our time discussing tax relief in the Act for businesses, such as the Paycheck Protection Program.  In this Part Three, we will be discussing Discharge of Indebtedness and the Paycheck Protection Program.

Question 1:

• So, Attorney, let’s get started this morning with this question: Generally speaking, Attorney, what are the tax implications for discharge of indebtedness?

Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 1:

• Good morning Reyna.
• That is an excellent place to start before we get into the Paycheck Protection Program and the special rules of forgiveness of Paycheck Protection Program loans to businesses under the CARES Act and the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.
• Generally speaking, under Internal Revenue Code Section 61(a)(11) and Treasury Regulations Section 1.61-12(a), a taxpayer that is discharged from paying a debt by a creditor must include the gross amount discharged in gross income for federal income tax purposes.  It is gross income because the taxpayer has received an increment in wealth; it’s the same as wages, or earnings or dividends or other forms of increase in wealth realized by a taxpayer.
• There are several exceptions to this rule however, and the one we care about in this Podcast relates to the exceptions codified into law under the CARES Act and the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Immigration Legal Assistant

• That sounds interesting.

Question 2:

• Could you explain in a nutshell when a Payroll Protection Program loan is qualified for tax-free loan forgiveness under the Covid-19 relief programs you have been discussing in these last three podcasts?

Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 2:

• Reyna, in a nutshell; whether a Paycheck Protection Program Loan is eligible for tax-free cancellation of debt treatment depend upon how much of the paycheck protection program loan amount was used for payment of payroll costs during a covered period.
• Under the Original CAREs Act, paycheck protection program loan proceeds could be used to pay certain eligible business expenses, such as, payroll costs, utility payments, rent and interest on some mortgage obligations. All of this cost had to be incurred by the recipient of the loan.  Depending upon whether 75 percent or more of the loan proceeds were used on payroll cost during the covered period, some or all of the payroll protection loan was subject to forgiveness under the CARES Act.  Under the original CARES Act there were some questions as to whether the cancelation of the debt was taxable income under Internal Revenue Code Section 61.  Also, under the original CARES Act, the IRS issued rules that stated that the  business costs paid from the Paycheck Protection Act Loan Proceeds were not deductible by the business on their federal tax return.  However, Congress overruled the Internal Revenue Service in the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 making all Payroll Protection Program Loans tax-free and Congress also ruled that the business expenses paid with the loan proceeds were fully deductible business expenses pursuant to normal Internal Revenue Code provisions.  These particular relief provisions in the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 relates back to and applies to Payroll Protection Program loans under the CARES Act as well as those originating under the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Immigration Legal Assistant

• Let me make sure I understand what you just said attorney! I think you said that when a Payroll Protection Program Loan is used to pay business operating expenses, such as, payroll costs, utility payments, rent, and certain kinds of mortgage interest, the Payroll Protection Program loan can be canceled tax-free to the business?  And the business can still deduct the business expenses paid using the loan proceeds on their annual federal tax return!
• Did I get all that right, Attorney?

Question 3:

• Attorney is the discharge of Payroll Protection Loan under the CARES Act automatic or do an application for forgiveness have to be filed somewhere?

 Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 3:

• Reyna your summary of what I said is perfect. And no, the forgiveness of a Paycheck Protection Program Loan is not automatic.
• The recipient must submit the appropriate application to the Small Business Administration through their financial institution.
• Under the CARES Act, loan forgiveness request were filed on Form 3508 or 3508EZ depending upon the maximum amount of the loan forgiveness and certain other factors. Further all loan forgiveness applications have to be accompanied by credible business records and documents during the covered period supporting the business owners’ assertions in the debt cancellation applications.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Tax Legal Assistant

QUESTION 4:

• Attorney in a nutshell, what are the eligibility requirements for cancelation of the Payroll Protection Program Loan under the Consolidated Appropriation Act, 2021? I mean, Attorney are the rules, forms and steps to take for tax-free discharge of the debt the same as under the CARES Act?

Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 4:

• Very well! Let me describe some of the differences or changes to the Payroll Protection Program Loan forgiveness rules, forms and procedures made by the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.
• Remember in our previous Podcast in Part 2, we explained how the eligible expenses paid from a Paycheck Protection Program Loan was expanded under the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 to include expenses like, payment for business software and cloud computing services incurred due to covid-19, certain covered capital expenditures and certain covered worker safety measure expenditures; The key metric to keep in mind is this one: The Paycheck Protection Program is still essentially focused on maintenance of a business’ employees and staff.  Keep people employed– that in a nutshell is what PPP is about.  You can just go by the name of the program— that is, Paycheck Protection Program.  So, expenditure of at least 75% of the loan proceeds to maintain payroll during the covered period is still key to tax-free cancellation of the debt under the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.
• The Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 made it simpler and easier for covered Paycheck Protection Program Loan requests from certain eligible recipients to be forgiven. Only a certification as follows need to be made by the loan recipient; and no substantiating documentation need to be filed with the certification:
• An eligible recipient must submit to their lender a certification that attest that–
  1. a description of the number of employees they were able to retain because of the paycheck protection loan;
  2. Estimates of amount of the loan spent on payroll costs;
  3. Attest that they have accurately supplied items 1 and 2 and complied with Section 307, Simplified Forgiveness Application requirements of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 which requires retention of the employment records 4 years after submission of the forgiveness application and retention of all other pertinent records for a period of 3 years.
  4. The Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 states that the simplified loan application forgiveness form is not be any more than one page in length. These simplified PPP loan forgiveness procedures apply to Paycheck Protection Program loans in the amount of $150,000 or less.  The Section 307 Simplified Forgiveness Application provisions of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 applies to Paycheck Protection Program loans originating under the CARES Act or the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Tax Legal Assistant

• That sounds like a solid way many businesses can keep their employees working during this dreadful pandemic. Attorney, Paycheck Protection Program Loan forgiveness is not subject to taxation, right.  I mean we started this podcast talking about discharge of indebtedness.

Question 5:

• Is the cancelation or forgiveness by the Small Business Administration a discharge of indebtedness where the business will owe income taxes on the amount discharged? I need this to be clear; like in a nutshell; is it taxable income to the business or to the owner of the business?

Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 5:

• In a nutshell, Reyna!
• Paycheck Protection Loans forgiven by the Small Business Administration is a statutory exception to the Internal Revenue Code Section 61.
• In a nutshell, Paycheck Protection Program Loans that are forgiving or canceled by the Small Business Administration are tax-free to the business, to its owners, shareholders or partners.
• Let me throw in this caution however, all business who apply for and successful obtain SBA cancelation of a Paycheck Protection Program Loan should maintain the required books and records because they might have to submit such records for audit inspection and examination up to four years after the loan has been written off by the government.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Tax Legal Assistant

• That last point is an important one. Paycheck Protection Program Loans are Small Business Administration Loans.  SBA loans are subject to audit examination.

Question 6:

• Attorney, what is the extent or scope of the likely audit examination?

Attorney: Coleman Jackson

ANSWER 6:

• Businesses should consult with their trusted advisors when seeking forgiveness of these loans. The matters that we have been discussing are laws.  That is, we are explaining recent Acts of Congress in the government’s attempt to deal with the economic fall out and devastation caused by this dreadful global pandemic.
• In answer to your question with respect to the scope of the audit; I really don’t know exactly, but for sure the business is going to have to most likely present evidence of eligibility for the loan and eligibility for forgiveness of the loan pursuant to any subsequent rules and regulations that the Small Business Administration, United States Treasury or other governmental agency might issue in the future. Businesses should keep good books and records that properly reflect the expenditure of Paycheck Protection Program loan proceeds for at least seven years.

Interviewer: Reyna Munoz, Tax Legal Assistant

• Attorney thanks for such a detailed explanation of discharge of indebtedness and the Paycheck Protection Program.

Reyna Munoz’s Concluding Remarks

• Attorneythank you for this cogent presentation.
• I know we have not talked about everything concerning the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021. But these are my questions for now.  Perhaps we can do another podcast on this topic as time permits and interest by our listeners is communicated to us through calls, emails or otherwise.
• Our listeners who want to hear more podcast like this one should subscribe to our Legal Thoughts Podcast on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify or wherever they listen to their podcast. You can follow our blogs by going to our law firm’s website at cjacksonlaw.com.  Everybody take care for now!  Come back in about two weeks, for more taxation, litigation and immigration Legal Thoughts from Coleman Jackson, P.C., which is located right here in Dallas, Texas at 6060 North Central Expressway, Suite 620, Dallas, Texas 75206.
• English callers: 214-599-0431; Spanish callers:  214-599-0432 and Portuguese callers:  214-272-3100.

Attorney’s Concluding Remarks:

THIS IS END OF “LEGAL THOUGHTS” FOR NOW

• Thanks for giving us the opportunity to inform you about the “Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021 as it relates to Discharge of Indebtedness and the Paycheck Protection Program”. We might do future blogs or podcast dealing with the Exclusion of Entities Receiving Shuttered Venue Operator Grants under Section 7(a)(36) of the Small Business Act, 15 U.S.C. 636(a)(36).
• If you want to see or hear more taxation, litigation and immigration LEGAL THOUGHTS from Coleman Jackson, P.C. Stay tune!  Watch for a new Legal Thoughts podcast in about two weeks and check our law firm’s website at www. cjacksonlaw.com to follow our blogs.  We are here in Dallas, Texas and want to inform, educate and encourage our communities on topics dealing with taxation, litigation and immigration.  Until next time, take care..